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The vice-presidential debates are over. What do you think? Did you hear from Sarah Palin anything other than the standard set of “folksy colloquialisms” (as Tom Shales from the Washington Post calls it ) and her traditional mantras such as “Washington outsider”, “maverick” and the need to “combat the Wall Street greed”? And what about Joe Biden, the eloquent senator who spent three decades inside the Beltway? Was he credible as the agent of change?


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dreadfulpenny81 wrote:
Oct. 3rd, 2008 10:37 am (UTC)
Obama's chant of "Change" is a completely false one. If he wanted to present real change in his campaign, he wouldn't have chosen a candidate like Joe Biden who is a symbol for politics as usual. But I understand; Obama has to choose an older VP candidate to make up for his lack of experience as a political leader.
By the way, Hitler had chants for his political campaigns, too. And he also censored the common man, just like Barack Obama and people working for his campaign do. Think about it.
orwhoeveriam wrote:
Oct. 3rd, 2008 10:49 am (UTC)
Every political campaign has chants. "Drill, baby, drill" comes to mind.

I'm sure I'll regret asking this, but who has Obama censored?
(no subject) - credendovides - Oct. 3rd, 2008 11:05 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - valknott - Oct. 3rd, 2008 11:23 am (UTC) Expand
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(no subject) - mightyafrodite - Oct. 3rd, 2008 07:03 pm (UTC) Expand
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madelinekrieger wrote:
Oct. 3rd, 2008 10:41 am (UTC)
I don't mean for this to sound rude in the least bit, but for a question that's coming from a newspaper, I find the wording of this post to be a bit 'spin doctored'.

In a typical blog, questions are slanted all the time; that's what they're there for. But you're representing a newspaper for the purpose of reporting news on the election. I would've expected the wording to be more unbiased. I'm not familiar with the policies of Russian reporters and newspapers, so I can't speak with authority in that regard. But in the US we consider a post like this to be baiting the reader, using creative wordplay to try and garner a more directional response from them.

Just my two cents. As for your question, I felt both Biden and Palin conducted themselves fine, all things considered. Both misrepresented certain facts, but I challenge anyone to point out an 'honest politician'.
madelinekrieger wrote:
Oct. 3rd, 2008 10:45 am (UTC)
Added: And ironically enough, I found the two of them to be more adult than their counterparts. Watching McCain and Obama debate is like trying to decide which one's the smoother liar. Watching Palin and Biden debate was refreshing in comparison.
(no subject) - jeffxandra - Oct. 3rd, 2008 12:22 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - letitshine - Oct. 3rd, 2008 12:35 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - wolfwyndd - Oct. 3rd, 2008 01:48 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - credendovides - Oct. 3rd, 2008 06:55 pm (UTC) Expand
valknott wrote:
Oct. 3rd, 2008 11:27 am (UTC)
Palin's comments were devoid of real content, she obviously was told to appeal to the emotions of her audience and try to play the "joe six pack hockey mom card" which was incredibly transparent. On CNN, the "voter dial" dived whenever she flashed that smile and started talking about Alaska or her "maverick" status. Biden, on the other hand, occasionally slipped into the detail-laden wonkiness Democrats are prone to do. That being said, I'd prefer an intelligent details wonk over a slogan-spouting talking head.
batbuds wrote:
Oct. 3rd, 2008 11:39 am (UTC)
Personally... I find Palin refreshing if not a bit naive. Biden, I find not eloquent as you say, but old school, tired and typical of professional politicians.

I can say the same things about Obama/McCain... Obama fresh, McCain jaded...

I am actually tired of the professional politicians... I vote for term limits on Congress too. And to make it even better, once you have served your term limit in one position, you are no longer eligible for any other position; in other words no drifting from House to Senate, to President/VP, etc... NO CAREER IN POLITICS... do your duty and go away... it would bring the lobbyist and special interest groups under control too...

But I digress... Your question is slanted... obviously... Please, if you are going to claim to be a non-biased reporter interested in honest and open conversation, verify that you are not stacking the deck before you even deal the first card...
credendovides wrote:
Oct. 3rd, 2008 11:47 am (UTC)
While I personally agree with the bias of the question (As in I prefer Obama/Biden over McCain/Palin, not that I agree with it being biased), I have to agree with the question being slanted. I have noticed a lot of the questions posted to this community have been very slanted. I'm honestly not sure what that reflects.

Unrelated, I've noticed that comments by the community seem to have much of the same slant. There have been only a handful of people who support the McCain/Palin ticket compared to those who support Obama/Biden. It's something I've been noticing since the beginning and have been wanting to mention. Again, I'm not really sure what it reflects, aside from the demographic that would join this community is more likely to be Democrat.

Edited at 2008-10-03 12:11 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - letitshine - Oct. 3rd, 2008 12:40 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - absurdhero - Oct. 3rd, 2008 01:36 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - credendovides - Oct. 3rd, 2008 06:52 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - the_paulr - Oct. 3rd, 2008 08:49 pm (UTC) Expand
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(no subject) - letitshine - Oct. 3rd, 2008 12:37 pm (UTC) Expand
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dustwing wrote:
Oct. 3rd, 2008 11:56 am (UTC)
I would, as I've said before, rather elect a horse's ass with a megaphone in its anus than Palin/McCain.

The first words out of Bidens mouth were exactly what I wanted to hear, and with the exception of the gay marraige thing, I'm pleased. Too much of the squabbling going on is about things that arent immediate threats (Abortion, for example, wont cause most of us any personal harm while the economy collapsing will) and the real threats are skirted around.

...and look at Palin's wildlife faux pass..too much hunting =not that many herbivores left for sport hunters to hunt, so she starts killing wolves. Greaat. I used to live on the Eastern shore of MD, we did the same thing in generations past and now we have far too many deer and the government tries to regulate it with hunters but we still managed to total two cars in fairly urban areas due to deer flying out on the road en masse. Meanwhile, one lone group of Eastern Shore Red Wolves survives at a tiny zoo in Salisbury.

I know republicans vote to uphold tradition, dont want sex ed in schools because they think that will destroy innocence before bullies and gossip will,and have a weird sort of brand loyalty to the way things have always been done even if they know it isnt the best way.

But we've had eight years of torment. Eight years of watching my mother's small buisness (And I mean small, not Palin's 3-million a year before taxes small) get worse and worse buisness, eight years of watching Art in schools and everything else I love slowly get whittled away by the way things have been. If I could, I'd want Bill back but since that isnt happening, Obama's the closest thing to a superhero I'm gonna be able to vote on this november and damned if we dont need a superhero to fix this royal mess we're in now.
lakadyn wrote:
Oct. 3rd, 2008 12:10 pm (UTC)
It sure will take a superhero to fix all that needs fixing. I'm actually glad the financial mess has started before november or the next president would have been blamed for the whole thing caused by Bush.
(no subject) - onewaystair - Oct. 3rd, 2008 06:25 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - lakadyn - Oct. 4th, 2008 06:06 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - krystalraven - Oct. 3rd, 2008 06:08 pm (UTC) Expand
mechers wrote:
Oct. 3rd, 2008 12:02 pm (UTC)
I'd rather elect an intelligent bore than a personable dumbshit.

lifeismagic wrote:
Oct. 3rd, 2008 03:08 pm (UTC)
hoppytoad79 wrote:
Oct. 3rd, 2008 12:07 pm (UTC)
The question is as biased to the left as Fox News is to the right.
princess__buffy wrote:
Oct. 6th, 2008 09:49 am (UTC)
And EVERYTHING else to the left.... seriously the Fox News bit gets old when every other major network is so glaringly biased to the left.
(no subject) - hoppytoad79 - Oct. 6th, 2008 04:58 pm (UTC) Expand
letitshine wrote:
Oct. 3rd, 2008 12:48 pm (UTC)
I feel that the McCain/Palin mantra of "I (sarah) don't get that Washington stuff! You have a different culture all together......" is completely offensive.

To imply that the general population of America should identify more with an under educated, under experienced, politically out of touch politician who can talk at "their level" is absurd. It's undermining of the intelligence of our people and that is offensive.

I truly hope in the coming days that someone will call the McCain/Palin campaign out on this as I wish Biden could have during the debate.

I also have a lot of beef with her claiming she hails from the "Heartland" of America... OKAY BTCH. LAST TIME CHECKED, ALASKA WAS THE 49TH STATE AND IS WAY THE FUCK UP NORTH; The Midwest is, in all fact-based reality, The "Heartland." So, if ANYONE should be able to stake claim to THAT title in this damned election, it would be Obama - considering he is representing Illinois. MY GOD.

It was another cheap play on Gov. Palin's part, towards the general American, assumed to be ignorant enough to buy into or "identify" with that bullshit. It was again, OFFENSIVE.
onewaystair wrote:
Oct. 3rd, 2008 07:01 pm (UTC)
But anti-intellectualism is such a powerful force in America today. Most people I have spoken to resent the implication that they should investigate the policies of political candidates-- whatever is told to them by their chosen news station (or family members) is good enough. Investigation and critical thinking are anathema; when confronted with hard evidence, all facts are brushed away by the gut-feelings argument of "But I just don't like him/her."

To understand the intentions of an educated person, you must sometimes do a little learning of your own, and many people are intellectually lazy or find this insulting to their pride. It is therefore fashionable to portray anyone who takes things seriously, learns too much, or cares too much, as "out of touch", and the mass dismissal of the usefulness of organized thought comforts people about their own ignorance. It's this (unfortunately large) demographic that finds the political giggling and professions of ignorance most appealing.

In short, it is offensive and absurd, but people identify with it. Some find it charming (particularly in women!). And charm is at least as valuable as ability in American politics.
sahmahnthah wrote:
Oct. 3rd, 2008 01:14 pm (UTC)
What a horse race?
Last night's VP debate irrefutably proved that certain tv stations have been bought by Democratic dollars to promote their agenda "in between the lines". Not only did Mrs. Palin hold her own during last night's debate, but she as well bolstered her image as "a strong and capable person" who will get the job done. With regards to the interview she gave K.C. I would surmise that regardless of her performance the interview was "set up" in such a way as to guarantee to cast an unfavorable light on Mrs. Palin. And it's the same with the CNN "voter dial". Did CNN share with it's audience whether the "voter dial" went up or down when Mrs. Palin called Isreal allies and as well strongly supported keeping Isreal safe admidst the arms race surrounding them. ??? I think the muscian Robert Palmer said it best in his song Simply Irrisistible, " The proof is irrefutable, I used to think she was good, but now I think she's simply irrisistible. I think the next chapter within U.S. government will be called "Gidget Goes to Washington".

Here's a big smile for all of you.
Recently I went to an international luxury spa to have a manicure, pedicure and facial. While I was in the waiting room I overheard some of the women there talking about sex. The conversation went like this.
Woman from Ironia: I was a virgin on my wedding night.
Woman from Coalabria: So was I.
Woman from Micronubia: I’m not married yet, but I’m a virgin and I’m waiting until my wedding night.
Woman from Weenonia: I don’t believe in marriage, but I’m saving it for the right one.
And then they all turned towards the woman from the U.S. who still hadn’t said anything.
When the woman from the U.S. realized they were waiting for her response she thought to herself. What am I going to say? I’m not a virgin. HMMM ???
After a few seconds she was divinely inspired to say: I’m a U.S. citizen. And that’s better than a virgin any day!
credendovides wrote:
Oct. 3rd, 2008 07:03 pm (UTC)
Re: What a horse race?
Were you watching the same debate I was? Because all I saw from Palin was that she could deliver republican talking points rather than answering the questions. If I wanted to see a speech, I could watch clips from the convention. I have yet to see anything from her that indicates she has what it takes to be a VP.
Re: What a horse race? - sahmahnthah - Oct. 6th, 2008 02:15 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What a horse race? - hoppytoad79 - Oct. 6th, 2008 05:07 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What a horse race? - sahmahnthah - Oct. 7th, 2008 04:11 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What a horse race? - hoppytoad79 - Oct. 7th, 2008 06:27 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What a horse race? - credendovides - Oct. 6th, 2008 09:29 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What a horse race? - sahmahnthah - Oct. 7th, 2008 04:03 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - (Anonymous) - Oct. 3rd, 2008 11:42 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What a horse race? - sahmahnthah - Oct. 6th, 2008 12:18 pm (UTC) Expand
seldearslj wrote:
Oct. 3rd, 2008 01:20 pm (UTC)
Er. I'm not a big fan of the Republican Party - I'd prefer the Dems to win this one, although it's neither my country nor my choice - but the bias against them is becoming rather frustrating.

Couldn't you have just asked what people thought of Palin during and after the debate, what people thought of Biden during and after the debate, and left the bias out of the question?

While LiveJournal (and this community) tends to lean towards Obama and the Democrats (that sounds like a rock band: Obama and the Democrats!), and much of the international community also leans towards Obama as President, surely there's room for a more even-handed methodology in the reporting on the election, particularly in posts such as this one, which aren't published in international newspapers, but are simply canvassing readers for opinions?
onewaystair wrote:
Oct. 3rd, 2008 07:31 pm (UTC)
I agree with you fully. The contributors to this community will only alienate their readers if they continue to use such blatantly biased terminology.

Though I know how difficult it is to remain objective when the future of an entire country (and the global political climate) is at stake, the wording of the original post could easily be changed to frame the question in a more neutral manner. In its present state it seems only to confuse simple polling with editorializing. I must ask, which one is the real purpose of this community?
(no subject) - credendovides - Oct. 3rd, 2008 09:00 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - onewaystair - Oct. 4th, 2008 01:31 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - credendovides - Oct. 4th, 2008 01:44 am (UTC) Expand
daishi_ wrote:
Oct. 3rd, 2008 01:29 pm (UTC)
Coming from the UK
Obviously I'm not affected by what is going on in America, however I do have massive interest in the US elections so I kept an eye on what happened at the debate.

I have to say that my POV can be ignored quite happily, and I won't take offense if you just say that I'm wrong and leave it be.

Biden seemed pretty sure on the Democrate/Obama/His ideas on what was going on. Considering the position of the VP, I thought he was going to be much more able and I would have a lot more confidence in him after what he was saying last night. As with many in the internation community I do have a preference towards Obama, but Biden also seemed more secure as a VP (or Crisis man).

Palin was going to be the possible swing in the scales for McCain, or at least that was the plan. However, I have a bad feeling it has backfired. I just keep thinking that your VP should be someone you can fall to if something happens to your President. I'm not sure she is the right person for that. I believe that for all of the issues both VP candidates had in the debate, her "folksy" and "average mum" character felt a little plastic on occasion.
absurdhero wrote:
Oct. 3rd, 2008 02:11 pm (UTC)
Palin benefited from the dearth of expectations she had going into this debate. As long as she didn't burp, fart or fall down she would have been fine. But she also showed that she is a much better debater than interviewer. She capably regurgitated the Republican attacks and talking points, interjecting memorized speeches as responses to questions that were in some cases completely unrelated.

Biden also managed to avoid any gaffes or pitfalls, doing an excellent job of focusing his attacks on Mccain rather than Palin herself, a tactic which would have made him look like a bully. There were some solid attack lines as well as moments of real emotion, which were largely steamrolled past obliviously by Palin.

If you're a person who respects facts, Biden won the night. If you're a person who relies more on personality, it's a split decision. Palin impressed as many people with her redirection and folksy colloquialisms as she turned off with her snippy and condescending attitude.
elneclare wrote:
Oct. 3rd, 2008 03:04 pm (UTC)
While I'm an Obama supporter, I was hoping to actually see Sarah Palin speak on a wider range of issues, then we heard since she was nominated for VP. Instead she kept trying to keep speaking about a few talking points and was constantly asking to go back to them, instead of answering the questions asked by Gwen Ifil. It was as she was told by her McCain handlers, to just stay to the issues practice before the debate.

Biden did his best to stay on the topic of the current questions, while also respond to Palin's repeated returns to the same subjects. He seem level headed compare to Palin's cheerleader peppiness. American's want leaders and the the girl who was most popular in High school. Most f us remember that girl as snobbish and shallow. The thought that she may be a heartbeat away from the Presidency scare us.
mithras151 wrote:
Oct. 3rd, 2008 04:36 pm (UTC)
Despite the slight bias of the question, I have to say that I thought the both of them sucked equally badly.
Palin was a bit too enthusiastic of the same topics over and over and over... she reminded me slightly of the energizer bunny. She keeps going and going and going, regardless of direction or purpose.
Biden, on the other hand, while he spoke on a broad range of issues, was a bit more of a bore than I had hoped. He exuded charm and "charisma" the same way a used car salesman stinks of smarm. Definitely a tried and true politician there.
In either case, they're both politicians, they lie, it just depends on who's less inclined towards that particular predisposition. Did either one come across as particularly honest? No.
grace_om wrote:
Oct. 3rd, 2008 04:48 pm (UTC)
Biden, credible as "the agent of change?" Change from Bush? Yes. Change in Washington operations in general? TBH, not so much. Credible as someone who actually knows what he's talking about and can support his opinions? Totally.

Obama? Yes, I think he could definitely shake up the current extreme polarization in Washington, as well as give this country a badly needed fresh start in foreign relations.

McCain...totally not credible as an agent of change in any way. Palin? Yes, she is. But not in a good way.

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